Idran1701 (2:01:36 PM): Hey, Shaun.
CGNakibe (2:01:48 PM): Sup Idran?
Idran1701 (2:01:52 PM): Not much. You?
CGNakibe (2:02:12 PM): Nothing too much here.
Idran1701 (2:02:14 PM): *nod*
Idran1701 (2:02:25 PM): ...Isn't that buddy icon from the Windows XP login?
Idran1701 (2:02:38 PM): One of the account icons?
CGNakibe (2:02:39 PM): I have no idea, considering that I'm on Trillian now and haven't bothered to change it here.
Idran1701 (2:02:42 PM): Ah.
Idran1701 (2:02:45 PM): It's the space shuttle!
Idran1701 (2:05:25 PM): Anyway, how'd the haircut and movie go?
CGNakibe (2:06:29 PM): It didn't. And if you have time as well we can do Things now.
Idran1701 (2:06:55 PM): *nod* Sure. In fact, I was thinking, this might be easy enough to continue during Shannel, if you're up for that.
Idran1701 (2:08:53 PM): ...Huh. There's a helium shortage.
Idran1701 (2:09:01 PM): http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2007/09/26/helium-shortage.html
Idran1701 (2:18:31 PM): Anyway, if you want to start, I'm good. :O
CGNakibe (2:20:57 PM): Huh. didn't know about any shortage of helium.
Idran1701 (2:21:04 PM): Nor did I.
Idran1701 (2:25:54 PM): So, which of the four do you want to start with? Guvners, Harmonium, Signers, or Ciphers?
CGNakibe (2:26:21 PM): Hmm. Guvners, I think.
Idran1701 (2:27:16 PM): *nod* All right. You ready to start?
CGNakibe (2:27:32 PM): (Nope...yes... maybe?)
Idran1701 (2:29:03 PM): (:O!)
CGNakibe (2:30:43 PM): (Mew.)
Idran1701 (2:30:55 PM): (I AM WRITING THE INTRO >:!)
Idran1701 (2:36:27 PM): *Leaving Karin's for now, Arian heads through Sigil to the center of the Lady's Ward. The City Court is certainly easy enough to find; it's right in the heart of the ward, not too far from the Barracks and Prison. And like all faction headquarters, it seems, it's an imposing sight. Almost 150 feet square and close to the same height at its highest point, the main building appears to rise at least two stories from its granite foundation, and its tower rises two, maybe three more.*
Idran1701 (2:36:38 PM): ( http://www.mysidia.org/Planescape/CityCourt.png )
CGNakibe (2:38:26 PM): IM: Seems imposing enough....
Idran1701 (2:39:52 PM): *From here, he can see the outer Promenade, almost literally packed with people all clamoring for attention, Harmonium and non- alike*
Idran1701 (2:40:07 PM): *From the number of manacles, those awaiting a trial, it seems*
CGNakibe (2:42:08 PM): IM: Huh. So, they do that here? Somehow I suppose that isn't surprising....
CGNakibe (2:42:23 PM): *Any other obvious entrances around here?*
Idran1701 (2:44:27 PM): *Well, the Promenade stretches the entire way around the building, from the top of the grand stairs, so it would appear he'd have to press through anywhere he went. But the only entrance visible from the front is the main one, and it has quite the line already of Harmonium officials, what he can only guess are solicitors, and fairly nasty-looking sorts getting a nice armed escort. Probably not the proper entrance for his business, he imagines.*
Idran1701 (2:44:44 PM): ( http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3916807#post3916807 )
Idran1701 (2:45:35 PM): ( "In the cleric section they muse about gods being redesigned, and one of their goals is, that they can be challenged by epic level characters." )
CGNakibe (2:46:54 PM): (HAH. I called a couple of those changes)
CGNakibe (2:47:01 PM): (The "X Training" bits in particular.)
Idran1701 (2:47:03 PM): (Then I will blame you >:!)
Idran1701 (2:47:15 PM): (DO NOT CALL THINGS THAT YOU WOULD RATHER NOT HAPPEN)
Idran1701 (2:47:19 PM): (THAT IS CRUEL)
CGNakibe (2:47:43 PM): (*gnaws on your face for fiber*)
CGNakibe (2:48:12 PM): Hmmm.
CGNakibe (2:48:33 PM): So. If that's the business entrance.... *looks around for other nearby buildings one might enter*
Idran1701 (2:57:10 PM): *Walking around the building, he does find a side entrance, as well as a separate entrance for the tower, which stands off of the building a bit. Both have their own lines as well, though, if with those a bit less dangerous-looking. He's still not quite sure which entrance he should be using himself, but likely one of these two.*
Idran1701 (2:57:42 PM): *And convienently enough, there's a second, smaller set of stairs in back up to the Court's promenade *
Idran1701 (3:01:15 PM): *He can see a few folks mulling through the crowd now, though, taking notes and writing down details; either clerks or the press, most likely.*
Idran1701 (3:01:29 PM): (Don't know if he'd be familiar with the concept of the press just yet, but Sigil does have a few papers.)
CGNakibe (3:02:11 PM): IM: Hmm. Clerks of the court, I take it? *they hanging around either of the two entrances more than the other?*
CGNakibe (3:03:02 PM): (And yeah, reading this 4e information is like reading my notes for my conversion. Its kind of freaky, honestly.)
Idran1701 (3:03:07 PM): *Nope! They may even have been around the front entrance, it was too crowded to really tell there.

It's crowded here too, but less so, at least.*

CGNakibe (3:03:08 PM): (THEY'RE IN MY HEAD. >.<;;; )
Idran1701 (3:03:31 PM): (Then no offense to you, Shaun, but your conversion isn't sounding very attractive to me either.)
Idran1701 (3:03:55 PM): (There is no situation I can possibly imagine where a mortal should be facing a god and survive. Maybe under rare occasions with a lot of setup a demigod.)
CGNakibe (3:04:06 PM): (That was not in my plan.)
CGNakibe (3:04:14 PM): (And I might note that 3e does that, just not explicitly.)
Idran1701 (3:04:20 PM): (No it doesn't.)
Idran1701 (3:04:32 PM): (Show me where a mortal is able to ever face a god, even one where the non-avatar form is statted?)
CGNakibe (3:05:02 PM): (Gods are PC Lv 21 minimum by the way that they were described in the Deities book. And I'm not saying that they're able, its just implied that the PCs at that point SHOULD be powerful enough to do so.)
Idran1701 (3:05:10 PM): (Plus with divine ranks.)
Idran1701 (3:05:21 PM): (No, it isn't. I saw that implication nowhere in Deities.)
CGNakibe (3:05:23 PM): (There IS a divine rank 0, I will point out.)
Idran1701 (3:05:30 PM): (Yes, for hero gods.)
Idran1701 (3:05:33 PM): (Even below demigods.)
CGNakibe (3:05:40 PM): (Anyway.)
Idran1701 (3:05:43 PM): (Those don't count, because they're mortals that have just barely crossed the scale.)
Idran1701 (3:05:52 PM): (They existed in pre-3e as well, and I wasn't considering them.)
CGNakibe (3:05:56 PM): IM: Eh. I figure I cna be either wrong, or more wrong.
CGNakibe (3:06:25 PM): *... heads to the entrance that leads towards the tower*
Idran1701 (3:06:36 PM): (I said maybe a demigod, and DR 0 is even below a demigod, so why would you think I was considering DR 0? :( )
CGNakibe (3:06:55 PM): (I didn't think you were, which is why I brought them up. >:P)
Idran1701 (3:07:14 PM): (You brought them up because I wasn't bothering to mention them since it was obvious I wasn't talking about them?)
CGNakibe (3:07:20 PM): (First step in the path and whatnot still implise that you should be headed in a certain direction.)
CGNakibe (3:07:25 PM): (implies)
CGNakibe (3:07:54 PM): (And I would again note that I'm not saying that I personally think that the PCs should be fighting Gods in any way, shape or form.)
Idran1701 (3:07:56 PM): (No, the first step in the path implies the second step. But an implied second step doesn't imply a third step, only an explicit second step does that.)
Idran1701 (3:09:10 PM): (The existence of DR 0 implies the ability to face DR 1-5, but the implied ability to face DR 1-5 doesn't further imply the ability to face DR 6-10.)
CGNakibe (3:09:22 PM): (Are you saying that the fact that 21st level characters are equivalent to the lowest rank of gods doesn't say that further divine ranks should eventually be available?)
Idran1701 (3:09:42 PM): (Yes, it should. And you know what's another name for apotheosis in D&D?)
Idran1701 (3:09:46 PM): (Character retirement.)
Idran1701 (3:11:54 PM): (There's a difference between mortals fighting gods and gods fighting gods. And if this is the case for you, then I'm house ruling for every game I ever run right now, no creature without a divine rank can cause any damage to a creature with a divine rank above 0, and they can't cause any spell effects against any creature with a divine rank above 5.)
Idran1701 (3:12:06 PM): (The avatars are technically fair game, but not the gods themselves.)
Idran1701 (3:12:38 PM): (The gods shouldn't even have a physical or incorporeal manifestation beyond avatars.)
Idran1701 (3:12:51 PM): (Any time you see a god, bam, that's an avatar.)
CGNakibe (3:13:11 PM): (First off, you started by jumping to the conclusion that I support this action, when I have stated that I do not. The rules do, however, allow for this to occur, and make it POSSIBLE for PCs to attempt, regardless of whether or not you think it SHOULD be done.)
Idran1701 (3:13:13 PM): (Except demigods.)
Idran1701 (3:13:20 PM): (...You're right.)
Idran1701 (3:13:21 PM): (Sorry.)
Idran1701 (3:13:32 PM): (It's just the way 4e seems to be moving is getting me really ticked off. :( )
CGNakibe (3:13:53 PM): (Again: Personally, I wouldn't bother with it myself, nor do I feel that I'd want to pull anything above 20th level. After Lv 16 or so it breaks down, so I wouldn't even play 4e at much beyond that level, gods or no)
Idran1701 (3:13:55 PM): (They don't want to continue D&D, they want to make a new system based on D&D.)
CGNakibe (3:14:26 PM): (One could argue that 3e was a new system based on D&D. I honestly don't really see the argument since the changes between editions were already huge.)
Idran1701 (3:14:37 PM): (No they weren't. Everything still felt the same.)
Idran1701 (3:14:41 PM): (The _mechanics_ were different.)
Idran1701 (3:14:50 PM): (And I thought the feeling was different, but I was wrong.)
Idran1701 (3:15:02 PM): (Elves were still elves, the planes were still the planes, alignments were still alignments.)
CGNakibe (3:15:04 PM): (And the mechanics are different again. Wizards has merely actively AVOIDED discussing the mechanics directly.)
CGNakibe (3:15:20 PM): (You're making too many assumptions about what will be based on what people say might be. Most of the info is design notes.)
Idran1701 (3:15:29 PM): And it is the design notes that I am upset about.)
Idran1701 (3:15:34 PM): (They _got rid of the great wheel_.)
Idran1701 (3:15:37 PM): (That's a fact.)
Idran1701 (3:16:16 PM): (Can you name one non-mechanical basic system assumption they changed from 2e to 3e? The worst they did is make halflings more kender-like, which wasn't that far off anyway.)
Idran1701 (3:16:50 PM): (Maybe it doesn't bother you as much because you're up for any system as long as it's good.)
CGNakibe (3:16:51 PM): (I'd also point out that Greyhawk wasn't even supported product in 3e. Most of the D&D staples weren't. You COULD play them with the rules, and they left in the Greyhawk terminology and pantheon as a starting point, but nothing from 2e proper EXCEPT FOrgotten Realms truly crossed the divide)
Idran1701 (3:17:13 PM): (I'm not talking about Greyhawk.)
CGNakibe (3:17:19 PM): (I'm not either.)
CGNakibe (3:17:30 PM): (I'm pointing out that EVERYTHING changed in 3e, it just LOOKS like it didn't.)
Idran1701 (3:17:39 PM): (Show me something not based in mechanics that changed.)
Idran1701 (3:18:12 PM): (Wizards were still spellcasters that memorized spells each day based on a set of schools.)
Idran1701 (3:18:22 PM): (Priests were still divine casters that prayed to their gods to recieve a daily allotment of spells.)
CGNakibe (3:18:22 PM): (I honestly can't say I know enough 2e to go through and tell you every single change. I can't. Unless I spend another $30 on the nearby bookstore)
Idran1701 (3:18:34 PM): (I didn't say every one.)
Idran1701 (3:18:37 PM): (I said _one_.)
CGNakibe (3:18:59 PM): (Missing Gods in the pantheon, How much of the Great Wheel stayed hte same exactly? You'd know better than I would.)
Idran1701 (3:19:05 PM): (All of it.)
CGNakibe (3:19:29 PM): (You're building a straw man here, Idran, based on your nostalgia for 2e and for the fact that 3e kept ENOUGH of the setting that you THINK its the same.)
Idran1701 (3:19:53 PM): (You haven't shown me anything that's changed that's not based in dice and bonuses.)
CGNakibe (3:20:01 PM): (I'm pointing out that its not, and they made a few changes even in the translation. I'm ALSO saying that I don't know 2e well enough to identify the majority of them.)
Idran1701 (3:20:15 PM): (Why do you keep saying I'm asking for multiple changes?)
CGNakibe (3:20:16 PM): (You're assuming that because I can't show you a proper example, that there must not BE one.)
CGNakibe (3:20:46 PM): (I don't say that you're asking for multiple changes. I'm saying, if you'll reread, that I don't KNOW 2e well enough to IDENTIFY any.)
CGNakibe (3:21:15 PM): (The last 2e product I actively played with was Baldur's Gate 2, which I didn't play very far into. I know from outside info that things HAVE changed.)
Idran1701 (3:21:24 PM): (I hate to appeal to authority, but I'm not even the only one that thinks this.)
CGNakibe (3:21:49 PM): (I'm well aware.)
Idran1701 (3:21:57 PM): (Erik Mona, publisher of Paizo Publishing and former Editor-in-Chief for Dragon and Dungeon magazine, one of the writers for the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, agrees with me.)
CGNakibe (3:22:44 PM): (Here's a better question for you.)
CGNakibe (3:23:03 PM): (What makes it D&D, rather than just another system?)
CGNakibe (3:23:28 PM): (I want to know what's being lost between editions that makes it necessary to be called something else in your mind.)
CGNakibe (3:24:43 PM): (I have no problem admitting my lack of knowledge here, after all, I couldn't get ahold of D&D till 3e. And made the switch to 3.5. That's all I know from personal experience.)
Idran1701 (3:25:39 PM): (Basically, every change that makes me have to change my perception of the general setting in which the system is to be placed moves it a little further in my mind. A few small changes are fine. Something as strong as redefining chaos, redefining demons, redefining succubi as lawful, redefining the planes, things where they are taking their view of things rather than considering the way the players of old systems see it, those are what takes it further from D&D.)
Idran1701 (3:26:04 PM): (Mona made a post on his message board that sums up my feelings almost exactly:)
Idran1701 wants to directly connect (3:26:06 PM).
CGNakibe is now directly connected (3:26:14 PM).
Idran1701 (3:26:21 PM): (I'm worried that I will not be able to DM a game within the same imaginative framework I've used to envision D&D for 30 years of my life because some random WotC designer decides that his idea of a succubus is cooler than the one that's served me fine for three decades. Same with elves and eladrins and the like. One or two of these issues, no big deal, but from what I've seen so far it doesn't look like "respect the traditions of the game" is particularly high on WotC list of design goals for the new edition.

I think that's fine for them as a business, but it's certainly not the strategy I would have taken and it's not a strategy I look forward to embracing with our GameMastery modules.

Again: I want a sleeker, easier-to-teach-and-learn system that allows me to tell stories similar to the ones I've been telling for three decades.

Every time we did something in Dragon or Dungeon that spoke to the core "story" of D&D or the longstanding edition-spanning story elements of the D&D experience, our sales went up and people online got very excited. I _know_ there is money to be made with this approach, but it does not seem to be the approach Wizards of the Coast is taking from the limited amount of information I've seen so far.

That worries me, honestly, but I'm still very firmly in the "wait and see" category and, well, I'm waiting to see.

--Erik)

Idran1701 (3:27:44 PM): (You've play...I don't know, it seems like 50 different systems, from what I've gathered. And you love poking with them, putting together new ones.)
CGNakibe (3:27:48 PM): (That's a little bit of a slippery slope, though. I know several older gamers that think that the change from THAC0 made the game suddenly a whole different experience. Personally I will admit that my likings in the system don't actually agree with current 3e. Quite frankly, if it weren't for the name recognition (and how HARD it is to get people to play other systems sometimes) I might be playing something else many days.)
Idran1701 (3:27:51 PM): (For almost 10 years, D&D was it for me.)
Idran1701 (3:28:20 PM): (I never even heavily played GURPS until this last year with Shini's game.)
CGNakibe (3:28:20 PM): (I have no problem moving to another system because of that. Basically, I admit that I learned D&D because D&D is easier to get others to want to learn.)
Idran1701 (3:28:26 PM): (I do.)
CGNakibe (3:29:36 PM): (That's part of the problem for me, too. No matter what I do I'll end up playing D&D one way or another. My RL GM for a while only started his 3e campaign to see what 3e was like. He was a massive 2e fan. Not sure what he'd think about this either.)
Idran1701 (3:29:42 PM): ("Back at Wizards of the Coast in 1999 there was a lot of talk about "firing the existing audience" of D&D with the third edition launch. The logic went like this: "Even if we have to fire all of our existing customers, so long as we replace those old customers with more new ones, the result will have been worth it."

Of course, 3.0 did nothing of the kind. Instead, largely by harkening back to the "good old days" of first edition ("Back to the Dungeon," Greyhawk as core, half-orcs, monks, and assassins back in the game, etc.) they managed to revitalize the community of "lapsed" D&D players, bringing them back into the fold.

I have to wonder how prevalent that "fire the customer" mindset is this time around.")

Idran1701 (3:29:45 PM): (Also from Erik.)
CGNakibe (3:29:58 PM): (If I went to go get another RL D&D group, it'd be a D&D group. Who knows which edition.)
Idran1701 (3:30:25 PM): (He worked at WotC during the 3e launch. He's not some old nostalgic gamer like Pervy.)
Idran1701 (3:31:52 PM): (There is solid evidence that Wizards isn't even thinking of the player. They haven't even given a single third-party company a look at the 4e ruleset. Do you know how much lead time they have on publications?)
Idran1701 (3:32:09 PM): (It would take months for them to convert their operations to 4e once it comes out.)
CGNakibe (3:32:35 PM): (Which means the next 4e-related thing would come out from a 3rd party sometime winter next year, MINIMUM.)
Idran1701 (3:33:23 PM): (That is evidence that they are thinking of their own profits above the community of players to a degree even beyond what might be expected of a gaming company.)
CGNakibe (3:34:07 PM): (Untrue. Part of your problem here is in the popularity of D&D as it stands. Do you realize what it means for the system that even when other systems in my case would be better or preferred, I STILL play D&D?)
Idran1701 (3:35:06 PM): (What? No, shaun, it is simply common courtesy to give your third-party publishers an in in advance. It's like not letting a third-party game designer have a programming kit for a console until after it's released.)
CGNakibe (3:35:23 PM): (Not what I'm pointing to.)
Idran1701 (3:35:38 PM): (It is what I'm pointing to, so how are you saying this isn't evidence that they're thinking of the profits first?)
Idran1701 (3:35:43 PM): (How is what I said untrue?)
Idran1701 (3:35:49 PM): (It's not evidence of that?)
CGNakibe (3:35:57 PM): (I haven't said that it was untrue either. Hold on a sec.)
Idran1701 (3:36:01 PM): (Yes you did.)
Idran1701 (3:36:07 PM): Idran1701 (3:33:23 PM): (That is evidence that they are thinking of their own profits above the community of players to a degree even beyond what might be expected of a gaming company.)
CGNakibe (3:34:07 PM): (Untrue.
CGNakibe (3:36:52 PM): (Ah. I suppose I lost that in my other train of thought here.)
CGNakibe (3:37:18 PM): (I'm saying that the popularity of D&D is to the point where even people who would be better off playing other RPGs are forced in a sense to play it DUE to the popularity.)
Idran1701 (3:37:30 PM): (That's not a slippery slope?)
Idran1701 (3:37:36 PM): (D&D is popular because...it's popular?)
Idran1701 (3:38:25 PM): (And how does that fit into the "fire the customers" mentality?)
CGNakibe (3:38:31 PM): (Justin. Go into any group. ANY group, almost any demographic. Mention D&D. See how close they are to knowing what you're talking about. I'm not saying its popular because its popular.)
CGNakibe (3:39:26 PM): (I'm saying that its changing the way it is, perhaps BECAUSE they see it as popular. Its doing this in order to take advantage of people like me. People who are playing D&D just because of the name recognition of the brand, and not because its actually any better for their needs ingame in any way, shape, or form.)
Idran1701 (3:39:59 PM): (So they're changing it for gamists.)
Idran1701 (3:40:00 PM): (Awesome.)
CGNakibe (3:40:47 PM): ( No. They're changing it for generalists. People that are "I don't know what we're gonna play tonight. So lets play D&D!". Your whole group nods, because they know how the system works, if not what they'll be doing with it.)
Idran1701 (3:41:07 PM): (People like that don't care what system is better, they care what they have.)
CGNakibe (3:41:11 PM): (That was what they were doing with the Open Gaming License after all. Making the system have more general appeal, or at least trying to.)
CGNakibe (3:41:54 PM): (Even more than that.)
Idran1701 (3:42:01 PM): (All right, I'm going to reverse the question on you. Is there anything they could do where you would actually agree with me?)
CGNakibe (3:42:06 PM): (When was the last time you were able to get Rifts from your average bookstore?)
Idran1701 (3:42:16 PM): (Name a change they would have to make where you would say "yep, that's not very repsectful to the traditions anymore"?)
CGNakibe (3:42:22 PM): (Several things. But if I agreed with you, I'd simply slip to one of the other dozens of systems I own.)
CGNakibe (3:42:42 PM): (You can't forget... I have zero attachment to the system as written.)
Idran1701 (3:42:55 PM): (I don't know when I've been able to get Rifts, I have never looked for anything that isn't D&D.)
CGNakibe (3:43:02 PM): (I have.)
CGNakibe (3:43:05 PM): (Good luck finding it.
CGNakibe (3:43:10 PM): (Good luck even special-ordering it.)
CGNakibe (3:43:45 PM): (You'll find ONE of each White Wolf game at the store, but that's the only exception to the general rule.)
CGNakibe (3:43:50 PM): ("Nothing but D&D")
CGNakibe (3:43:55 PM): (And not even most of that.)
Idran1701 (3:44:01 PM): (So you're saying they're only considering the segment of their current player base without system loyalty.)
CGNakibe (3:44:08 PM): (Because they can.)
Idran1701 (3:44:17 PM): (Which is what I'm saying, they are ignoring the player base that actually is loyal.)
Idran1701 (3:45:02 PM): (Also, I think you misunderstood what I was asking for by change before.)
Idran1701 (3:45:14 PM): (I am not saying 4e will necessarily be bad, I am saying it will be D&D in name only.)
CGNakibe (3:45:15 PM): (I might have, yes.)
Idran1701 (3:45:22 PM): (And I was asking for a change where you would agree with that statement.)
Idran1701 (3:47:03 PM): (If it is D&D in name only, even if it is a great system otherwise, I will be less likely to want to play it.)
CGNakibe (3:47:10 PM): (Most would have to be horrifying mechanics, when I think about it. )
Idran1701 (3:47:12 PM): (Because I don't want to play a great non-D&D system.)
Idran1701 (3:47:36 PM): (Given the choice, I would rather play an okay D&D than a great non-D&D.)
CGNakibe (3:47:39 PM): (You don't play non-D&D too often, from what I gather. >;P Jokes aside, I understand your concern. Quite well.)
Idran1701 (3:48:11 PM): (Can you give me a good reason why I should want to as someone that is only the barest bit gamist?)
CGNakibe (3:48:13 PM): (But.... I'd rather play something great. It'd still be better, for all that you lose otherwise. Hopefully.)
Idran1701 (3:48:23 PM): (It'd be better for gamists.)
CGNakibe (3:48:27 PM): (It doesn't have to be "gamist". I honestly think you're abusing the term.)
Idran1701 (3:49:17 PM): (Maybe I am, but I don't even know what makes one system better than another.)
Idran1701 (3:49:28 PM): (I can learn a system, but I have no idea how to compare them.)
Idran1701 (3:49:37 PM): (What does that make me, ignorant?)
CGNakibe (3:50:49 PM): (No. It doesn't. But for me, personally? I want a couple of things. I want simplicity. Less is good. in RPGWW I haven't really NEEDED a system to begin with, in most cases. We agree on the outcome of events, that's it.)
Idran1701 (3:51:06 PM): (Why is simplicity good?)
CGNakibe (3:51:29 PM): (More focus on RPing, character development, generally creating an interesting scene.)
Idran1701 (3:51:37 PM): (Says who?)
CGNakibe (3:51:40 PM): (Less on twinking, godmoding, etc.)
Idran1701 (3:51:46 PM): (So you can't have those things with a more complex system?)
CGNakibe (3:51:47 PM): (You're asking my opinion, and you're getting it. >:P)
Idran1701 (3:51:58 PM): (No, I'm asking you for the reasoning behind your opinion.)
CGNakibe (3:53:49 PM): (Games can oftentimes get bogged down by the rules of a system. Well-designed, complex systems can still be fast, or simple, but in GENERAL the complex systems slow things down one way or another. For that reason, I tend towards simple systems. Systems its easy for the player to grasp, and for the GM to implement.)
CGNakibe (3:55:43 PM): (The second thing involves the game itself. The design of any system can influence the way that the players look at the game itself. A system designed to, say, simulate horror films will be more likely to do, say, medival horror than, say, a superhero-based game.)
Idran1701 (3:56:07 PM): (I get that, yes. And I'm talking about just medieval fantasy stuff here.)
Idran1701 (3:56:23 PM): (There's a reason the only time I've seriously been involved in GURPS was a superhero game.)
CGNakibe (3:58:01 PM): (The same concern there still applies. GURPS at its base is a realistic system. I'd use it for "gritty" medival fantasy if I was going to use it. That's close to what the system itself is designed for, and sticking close to that idea creates better results if there ARE any rules that color the way your players see things.)
CGNakibe (3:58:43 PM): (GURPS combat is inherently deadly since damage is high, and dodging is low. The players will see that system in action and avoid fighting. If that's what I wanted from my game, perfect.)
Idran1701 (3:58:54 PM): (Okay, and how do people even bring that to mind?)
Idran1701 (3:59:09 PM): (How do people see "oh, combat in this system is usually this way, but combat in this system is this way"?)
Idran1701 (3:59:30 PM): (I've been involved in combat in both, and I couldn't tell you that about GURPS combat vs. D&D.)
CGNakibe (3:59:40 PM): (People are capable of understanding probability as it affects them, more or less. Its not something that they'll "know" the moment that you start rolling the dice, but after a few combats or a few games, they will form their own opinion.)
Idran1701 (3:59:51 PM): (But I didn't.)
CGNakibe (4:00:14 PM): (How much D&D have you played over the years?)
CGNakibe (4:00:27 PM): (And how many sessions of the GURPS game have you gone through?)
Idran1701 (4:01:00 PM): (Condensed down, maybe the equivalent of 4 years worth for a normal player. And maybe a couple dozen, I'm not exactly sure.)
CGNakibe (4:01:30 PM): (How many combats?)
Idran1701 (4:01:37 PM): (I don't know, 4 or 5?)
Idran1701 (4:01:47 PM): (But it's not just GURPS, I couldn't tell you that about comparing D&D to Philsys either.)
Idran1701 (4:01:54 PM): (And I've been in plenty of PS combats.)
Idran1701 (4:02:09 PM): (They don't compare in my mind, they're each in their own separate non-intersecting bubbles.)
CGNakibe (4:02:24 PM): (Ah. You don't consider them as being even related at all.)
Idran1701 (4:02:28 PM): (My mind doesn't even think to compare them despite them both being combats until someone mentions the comparison to me and I see if it makes sense.)
Idran1701 (4:02:44 PM): (They are so different that to be they are incomprable.)
Idran1701 (4:02:51 PM): (*to me)
CGNakibe (4:02:54 PM): (Other people tend to look at that more often, though. As long as they are rolling dice, they're doing the same or similar things.)
Idran1701 (4:03:06 PM): (Craps isn't anything like D&D.)
CGNakibe (4:03:40 PM): (And yet you're still rolling dice to achieve a result. Not everyone is as disconnected from the two ideas as to miss that relationship.)
CGNakibe (4:04:10 PM): (They aren't related, but people will relate them anyway, in order to form a frame of reference.)
CGNakibe (4:04:44 PM): (People will start to use their understanding to color their perceptions of what they're doing. Look at Doug. Haven't you noticed how much he complains about his own dice rolls as relates to... well... everything we've played?)
Idran1701 (4:05:07 PM): (...Uh...no.)
CGNakibe (4:05:09 PM): (Might as well drop the parens, don't you think?)
Idran1701 (4:05:34 PM): Yeah, I guess. I've already ruined this session anyway.
CGNakibe (4:05:35 PM): (Ask him what he thinks about combat in d20 as opposed to Philsys.)
CGNakibe (4:06:36 PM): Doug has formed an opinion of how his rolls generally go in the systems he's played. It colors his strategies in games. The way he thinks about said strategies too.
Idran1701 (4:06:42 PM): I don't know why I even bring up 4e anymore. I should just shut up about it, I keep getting in fights with people about it.
CGNakibe (4:07:08 PM): Hm. I honestly think you're right.
CGNakibe (4:07:21 PM): Like I said, I have no basis of comparing it to anything but 3e. And maybe other systems. >:P
Idran1701 (4:07:41 PM): All I know is from what I've seen, just to give a specific example:
Idran1701 (4:08:03 PM): Planescape would still feel like Planescape in 1e, in 2e, or in 3e. But Planescape in 4e so far seems to fit about as well as Planescape in GURPS.
Idran1701 (4:08:14 PM): Same with other settings I enjoy.
CGNakibe (4:08:31 PM): I can do Birthright in other systems easily enough. Some would work better than others.
Idran1701 (4:08:37 PM): But does it feel right?
CGNakibe (4:08:38 PM): Most D&D wouldn't work in GURPS, though. 9.9
CGNakibe (4:08:45 PM): Right or "right"?
Idran1701 (4:08:45 PM): You have to add or convert or modify.
CGNakibe (4:08:58 PM): If I'm switching the system its in, I'd have to do that anyway.
Idran1701 (4:09:02 PM): I mean without changing the system or modifying rules.
Idran1701 (4:09:12 PM): Only to change statblocks and stuff if it's a good fit.
Idran1701 (4:09:22 PM): If it's a good fit, the most you have to do is give something IQ instead of Int.
CGNakibe (4:09:30 PM): Then its only "right", by a specific standard that requires it be in the same rulesset with the same rules that it was originally designed with.
Idran1701 (4:09:38 PM): I'm not talking about a mechanical fit.
Idran1701 (4:09:53 PM): I'm talking about...even setting-free games have a certain feel to them regarding different specific settings.
Idran1701 (4:10:06 PM): Some of them can be exchanged and it still feels right while you're playing.
Idran1701 (4:10:07 PM): Some can't.
Idran1701 (4:10:15 PM): It doesn't feel the same.
CGNakibe (4:10:31 PM): What sort of fit are you looking for? Because honestly, the flavor of the game is vitally important to it. The mechanics of it are not.
CGNakibe (4:10:36 PM): If you ask me.
CGNakibe (4:10:40 PM): Other people would disagree.
Idran1701 (4:10:43 PM): But the flavor of the system interrelated to the flavor of the setting.
Idran1701 (4:11:01 PM): *interrelates
CGNakibe (4:11:06 PM): But you're not getting that its divorced in my mind from the mechanics of the setting, which are also interrelated.
Idran1701 (4:11:16 PM): Exactly. That's what I meant by gamist before.
Idran1701 (4:11:25 PM): To you, altering the flavor is no different than altering the mechanics.
CGNakibe (4:11:30 PM): Untrue.
CGNakibe (4:11:39 PM): To me, altering the flavor is different from altering the mechanics.
CGNakibe (4:11:44 PM): The mechanics in my mind are mutable.
Idran1701 (4:11:45 PM): You've already shown it's true.
CGNakibe (4:11:47 PM): Completely.
Idran1701 (4:11:54 PM): There are settings in which the mechanics are specifically mentioned in the flavor.
Idran1701 (4:12:00 PM): Like Planescape.
CGNakibe (4:12:00 PM): Correct.
CGNakibe (4:12:05 PM): You're right.
Idran1701 (4:12:17 PM): And in all settings, to some degree, if they're designed with a specific system in mind.
Idran1701 (4:12:38 PM): To move them to another system requires changing those elements to some degree.
Idran1701 (4:12:44 PM): Either on the system end or the setting end.
Idran1701 (4:12:58 PM): How much you have to do that determines how well it feels to me.
Idran1701 (4:13:33 PM): With how much Planescape mentions alignment, to bring it to GURPs you'd either have to rewrite those parts or add alignment to GURPS.
Idran1701 (4:13:41 PM): As a single example.
CGNakibe (4:13:50 PM): The second being easier in that example, but yes.
Idran1701 (4:13:54 PM): To you.
Idran1701 (4:13:58 PM): I don't do system design work.
Idran1701 (4:14:11 PM): It would be a little easier to me, but I wouldn't even know where to start.
Idran1701 (4:14:32 PM): (And I don't really want to get bogged down in instructions of how to do it right now, the specifics of how aren't really that relevant to me sinc eI'll probably never be doing that.)
CGNakibe (4:14:49 PM): Yeah, I figure you'll not be interested in them anyway.
Idran1701 (4:14:58 PM): You do system design work, so modifying systems to fit settings is a lot easier for you than it is for me.
Idran1701 (4:15:31 PM): So to you, the degree of "fit" is automatically increased across the board because you have to do less work for all examples, since you have more skill in that area.
Idran1701 (4:16:23 PM): I don't have much skill in writing either systems or settings.
CGNakibe (4:16:31 PM): But the two are intrinsically linked to you, and its hard, if not impossible, to seperate the two.
Idran1701 (4:16:35 PM): So how well they fit together naturally without doing any work at all is a big deal to me.
Idran1701 (4:17:17 PM): With Planescape being in 2e, you could bring it into 1e with very little work, and 3e with a small amount.
Idran1701 (4:17:44 PM): The same with Greyhawk, Spelljammer. I guess Ravenloft, though I've never played it, I only like it.
CGNakibe (4:19:06 PM): But its impossible to see any of this even remotely translating to 4e.
Idran1701 (4:19:11 PM): Right.
CGNakibe (4:19:22 PM): All of the familiar settings are practically dead by the function of their changes.
Idran1701 (4:19:27 PM): Or if not impossible, at least as hard as translating it to any other arbitrary system.
Idran1701 (4:19:45 PM): That's what I mean by 4e not feeling like D&D.
Idran1701 (4:20:08 PM): The amount of work that would need to be done taking any other D&D product and bringing it into 4e.
Idran1701 (4:20:25 PM): They've outright admitted they won't even be publishing a conversion guide for 3e-4e because it's not likely to be very feasible.
Idran1701 (4:20:31 PM): They recommend people start games from scratch.
Idran1701 (4:21:09 PM): With 3e, at first I thought it was the same, but looking at it more, I realized I was wrong.
Idran1701 (4:21:19 PM): That's why I got more comfortable with 3e.
Idran1701 (4:21:42 PM): I knew that even though mechanically it changed a lot, and I always admitted most things were for the better, in terms of that feel it wasn't that different.
CGNakibe (4:21:42 PM): What do you think of 3e so far anyway? I've been curious for a while.
Idran1701 (4:22:32 PM): I always agreed that the changes it made were improvements. At first I didn't want to move into it because I thought it was still too different, but nowadays I enjoy it. It's the equal of 2e to me, I'd say.
Idran1701 (4:24:06 PM): And as for other systems...I'm still not sure how to compare them, but I have fun playing most games in Philsys or that GURPS game also, yeah.
Idran1701 (4:24:27 PM): And from a player's perspective, pretty much every game I've played has felt the same.
Idran1701 (4:25:02 PM): But that's just a side note.

What I want them to do with 4e is the same thing they did with 3e.

Idran1701 (4:25:08 PM): Improve the system without changing the feel.
Idran1701 (4:25:18 PM): It's not like that's impossible, is it?
CGNakibe (4:26:19 PM): its hard to say. Some of the system problems that really DO need fixing in 3e got tied into a couple of the more intrinsic parts of D&D. They could be houseruled away if you knew about some of the problems, or easily ignored if you knew where things broke down.
Idran1701 (4:26:28 PM): Like what?
Idran1701 (4:26:55 PM): I have no idea what problems 3e has as a system, all I know is that some things aren't balanced. But I don't even know what problems a system can possibly have besides imbalance.
CGNakibe (4:27:06 PM): 3e proper breaks down after Lv 20. Epic rules break down to "Kill the PCs SOMEHOW" because 20th level spells are THAT powerful.
CGNakibe (4:27:13 PM): Sorry, 9th level spells.
Idran1701 (4:27:16 PM): That's imbalance, though.
CGNakibe (4:27:20 PM): That's assuming mages. Fighters are less.
CGNakibe (4:27:24 PM): I know.
Idran1701 (4:27:28 PM): What problems does it have that don't tie into balance?
CGNakibe (4:28:37 PM): Badly written or designed features in places. The simple fact that they, through 3e until Ebberon came out, didn't have a set campaign world proper. So, as I said, the Greyhawk deities and factions just sort of sit there.
Idran1701 (4:29:04 PM): Can you give me specific examples? I don't know what a badly written or a badly designed feature is.
CGNakibe (4:30:52 PM): That Iron Heart Surge I was telling you about. Again mechanical. For something you'd be more interested in, there's the other bit. The lack of a proper campaign world means that they spent most of their time avoiding attaching any flavor AT ALL to the features and prestige classes in the books. You are required to work them into the game in your own wa, at your own time.
Idran1701 (4:31:18 PM): Isn't that a good thing, though? It means other settings still fit without having to change the flavor.
CGNakibe (4:31:47 PM): But you wanted Planescape, not D&D, everything edition. >:p
Idran1701 (4:31:56 PM): No, Planescape was just my example.
CGNakibe (4:32:07 PM): Regardless of what setting you want to do, you DO still have to do the legwork for it.
Idran1701 (4:32:19 PM): But what I'm saying is some settings are easier for others.
Idran1701 (4:32:24 PM): *for other systems.
Idran1701 (4:32:51 PM): A setting designed for D&D second edition can be moved to third without too much trouble flavor-wise.
Idran1701 (4:32:59 PM): I assume the same in reverse, though I've never tried.
Idran1701 (4:33:13 PM): But moving a 2e setting to GURPS requires much more work.
CGNakibe (4:33:14 PM): Yes, that's true.
Idran1701 (4:33:20 PM): That is what I'm talking about there.
Idran1701 (4:33:26 PM): That's what I mean by fit.
CGNakibe (4:33:27 PM): D&D and GURPS are closer systems than a lot of others, I will tell you that.
Idran1701 (4:33:28 PM): And by feel.
CGNakibe (4:33:41 PM): GURPS has the wrong feel for, say, converting Eberron.
Idran1701 (4:33:59 PM): When I say that 3e feels like D&D, what I mean is that it isn't too far from the earlier versions of D&D, even with its sweeping mechanics changes.
CGNakibe (4:34:04 PM): At random.... people keep making me wonder if I need to go hunt down Dark Sun.
Idran1701 (4:34:11 PM): When I say that 4e doesn't, I mean the reverse.
CGNakibe (4:34:16 PM): But yeah, I see what you mean.
Idran1701 (4:34:37 PM): And that's what I'm worried about, that they are more concerned with making 4e have a wide appeal than with making 4e feel like 3e.
Idran1701 (4:34:46 PM): And if they aren't going to bother making it feel like 3e, why call it fourth edition?
Idran1701 (4:34:55 PM): Why not do what they did before and start from 1?
Idran1701 (4:35:06 PM): Or add something to the name like they did with AD&D?
Idran1701 (4:35:20 PM): Or even go the old route and publish it concurrently with 3e, like with the old Basic and Advanced set lines?
Idran1701 (4:36:10 PM): In what sense is it a fourth edition of D&D if they won't make it feel like D&D?
Idran1701 (4:36:27 PM): It's like renaming Star Wars "Star Trek 2".
CGNakibe (4:36:32 PM): They don't want to compete with their own product, so they will do none of those things.
Idran1701 (4:36:42 PM): The first two don't compete with themselves.
Idran1701 (4:36:50 PM): Because in those, there wouldn't be a different product to compete with.
Idran1701 (4:36:56 PM): They'd still stop publishing 3e.
Idran1701 (4:37:06 PM): And then they would publish Enhanced D&D.
Idran1701 (4:37:08 PM): No edition name.
CGNakibe (4:37:25 PM): Which still fails, in a business sense, to grab the attention of anyone who played 3e.
Idran1701 (4:37:35 PM): And making it not feel like D&D does the same thing.
CGNakibe (4:37:41 PM): Its like saying that "why doesn't Coke make New Coke?"
CGNakibe (4:37:59 PM): People would instantly be afraid of the product because of that.
Idran1701 (4:38:00 PM): Okay, why even say "fourth edition" at all?
CGNakibe (4:38:02 PM): Suspicious of it.
Idran1701 (4:38:04 PM): Why not just D&D?
CGNakibe (4:38:10 PM): You'd lose customers that would've actually bought it.
Idran1701 (4:38:14 PM): Won't it scare people off that there were three editions before this?
CGNakibe (4:38:31 PM): Again, you're missing the business sense in this change.
CGNakibe (4:38:52 PM): ANY change that implies that it is NOT related in ANY way to the last product line they put out means that they lose most of the people that are invested in the older product.
Idran1701 (4:38:56 PM): Bait and switch isn't business sense.
CGNakibe (4:39:04 PM): Works well enough for comics.
Idran1701 (4:39:08 PM): What?
CGNakibe (4:39:14 PM): They aren't trying to sell to you specifically, Idran.
Idran1701 (4:39:17 PM): No, not that.
Idran1701 (4:39:24 PM): What do you mean it works well enough for comics?
CGNakibe (4:41:08 PM): There are often changes to continuity wholesale in comics that the companies still want to have a fanbase for. People that were interested in the line before the change. THey publish about the change, announce a few of the differences, and create a new "sequel" comic. Their idea is to draw in new people that didn't like the way the original comic portrayed X, while keeping as many of the older customers that liked X as possible.
Idran1701 (4:41:17 PM): Restarting a comic at #1 is one of the most common business tactics there is.
CGNakibe (4:41:25 PM): True.
Idran1701 (4:41:34 PM): And how is that bait and switch?
Idran1701 (4:41:39 PM): They _publicize_ the changes.
CGNakibe (4:41:45 PM): Like I said, though. Its a combination of wanting to do that and wanting to maintain relationships between the older versions and the new.
Idran1701 (4:41:47 PM): They say what will be changing and pump it up as a great thing.
Idran1701 (4:41:52 PM): They fully admit that things will never be the same.
Idran1701 (4:42:19 PM): They don't say in a solicit "In this comic Iron Man kills the Mandarin!" and then not have that as part of the plot, unless there's a problem in publication.
CGNakibe (4:42:29 PM): ..... You're talking to me about how much you hate 4e based on the design notes which are published in hopes of getting people excited about the new changes in the D&D system.
Idran1701 (4:42:43 PM): Yes. And I assume the design notes are true.
Idran1701 (4:43:17 PM): The bait and switch is in calling this 4e when they aren't making any attempt to keep the feel of 3e.
CGNakibe (4:43:27 PM): But you're saying its a bait-and-switch tactic based on the fact that they didn't call it a new product.
Idran1701 (4:43:32 PM): In comics, when that happens, you know what they do?
Idran1701 (4:43:34 PM): New title.
CGNakibe (4:43:34 PM): Didn't make a new product name for it.
Idran1701 (4:43:36 PM): New numbering.
CGNakibe (4:43:41 PM): Which is usually a play off the old title.
Idran1701 (4:43:43 PM): And you know why?
Idran1701 (4:43:54 PM): Because (common belief in comics is) #1s sell more to new readers.
CGNakibe (4:43:56 PM): New numbering for the issues, which is a different thing.
Idran1701 (4:44:04 PM): New numbering for an edition isn't?
Idran1701 (4:44:22 PM): I even admitted, they could leave the name the same and just drop the edition part entirely.
Idran1701 (4:44:30 PM): It's not like it's really the fourth edition in any sense anyway.
Idran1701 (4:44:38 PM): It's more like the 7th edition of D&D.
CGNakibe (4:47:50 PM): There's really not much I can say here, you realize.
Idran1701 (4:48:10 PM): I know, but you're arguing purely from the perspective of "what makes us the most money".
Idran1701 (4:48:13 PM): Let me ask you this instead.
Idran1701 (4:48:27 PM): Do you think it is ethical for them to call it 4e if they aren't making any attempt at making it feel like D&D?
CGNakibe (4:51:02 PM): For people that have played longer than 3e/3.5? Yes. For those who are absolute nuts about 3.0/3.5 only? Probably not.
Idran1701 (4:51:33 PM): I am not talking about the comparison to the feel of 3e.
Idran1701 (4:51:47 PM): I'm talking about making it feel like D&D, the set of systems that existed from 1974 up to the present day.
Idran1701 (4:52:00 PM): Or more accurately, the Advanced line that started with AD&D 1e.
Idran1701 (4:52:19 PM): Since if they're going to call it 4e, it ought to feel like it's actually the fourth edition of the line it gets its numbering from.
CGNakibe (4:52:29 PM): Perspective does matter in this case, you know.
CGNakibe (4:52:58 PM): If I actually knew anyone that played with the original Basic Set, they probably would've told me that even 3e was gone too far.
Idran1701 (4:53:12 PM): And I just said don't include the basic set, since the numbering doesn't draw from the basic set.
Idran1701 (4:53:52 PM): If it did, like I said, it'd be more accurate to call it 7th edition. Maybe 6th, I'm not definitely sure how many there were in the Basic line.
CGNakibe (4:53:55 PM): I know that. But is it fair to decide not to include them just because their perspective would change the answer to the question?
CGNakibe (4:54:17 PM): How much change is "too much", in this case?
Idran1701 (4:54:21 PM): Yes, because we are talking about them naming it as the fourth edition, when the edition numbering scheme comes from the Advanced set.
CGNakibe (4:54:32 PM): Are you sure we haven't already passed the line?
Idran1701 (4:54:36 PM): Is it fair to talk about the edition number of EB without including World Book?
CGNakibe (4:54:51 PM): And why does it matter less that the people an edition ago think differently compared to two or more?
Idran1701 (4:55:01 PM): Because that's not what the number's from!
Idran1701 (4:55:10 PM): The number is from the Advanced line.
CGNakibe (4:55:18 PM): Argument of tradition over change.
Idran1701 (4:55:18 PM): First edition was the first edition of the advanced line.
Idran1701 (4:55:20 PM): No.
Idran1701 (4:55:44 PM): Arguing that it should draw from all the editions is fine.
Idran1701 (4:55:50 PM): If you're arguing that it should be 6e, that's fine.
Idran1701 (4:56:00 PM): Because that is what you are saying if you're bringing the basic set into this.
CGNakibe (4:56:26 PM): So you're saying that this ethical argument that the edition number being left in is objective, resistant to the differences in opinion that have occured between editions?
Idran1701 (4:56:32 PM): If they are calling it 4e, they are only including the Advanced line. If they are calling it 6 or 7e, they are including every system.
Idran1701 (4:56:40 PM): If they are calling it 1e, they are saying it draws from no line.
Idran1701 (4:56:49 PM): If they are calling it 3.75e, they are saying it draws from 3e.
CGNakibe (4:56:54 PM): Does it draw from no line?
Idran1701 (4:56:56 PM): If they are calling it 2.75, they are saying it draws from 2e.
Idran1701 (4:57:18 PM): If they are calling it 2 or 3e, they are saying it draws from just the Basic line in a way that would be extremely confusing with the other publications.
Idran1701 (4:57:31 PM): There is a logical argument for each numbering.
Idran1701 (4:57:35 PM): Which do you say is most ethical?
CGNakibe (4:57:49 PM): Yes, but not a logical argument if you jump between numberings.
CGNakibe (4:58:25 PM): Is it ethical to call Internet Explorer version 11 if it in practice performs nothing like Internet Explorer 3?
Idran1701 (4:58:43 PM): You know what, never mind.
CGNakibe (4:58:55 PM): Its a fallacious argument, man. Sorry.
Idran1701 (4:59:00 PM): You're just making every effort to devil's advocate seemingly just to tick me off, so I'm just going to drop it.
CGNakibe (4:59:11 PM): Not at all.
CGNakibe (4:59:49 PM): I understand you don't like this edition, and that you feel it has nothing to do with any of the D&D that you have played or known before. Its changing many of the things that you and many others consider intrinsic to the system.
CGNakibe (5:00:10 PM): But you're asking me if its fair to call it D&D because its different from your past experiences of what D&D is and should be.
Idran1701 (5:00:21 PM): Okay, you can keep talking, but I don't want to respond, because if I do, I know I'm going to get upset to the point of saying something I know I'll feel bad about later.
CGNakibe (5:00:27 PM): I can't argue that perspective at all, and you know that. Its not possible. It requires more than I am capable of.
Idran1701 (5:00:59 PM): ...Okay. Look. It just seems like you're not even arguing your perspective.
Idran1701 (5:01:05 PM): That you're arguing Wizards' perspective for them.
Idran1701 (5:01:29 PM): I don't care what makes the most business sense.
CGNakibe (5:01:34 PM): I told you before, I have no investment in the topic. None. AT ALL.
Idran1701 (5:01:39 PM): I don't care what would be best for Wizards or Hasbro.
Idran1701 (5:01:57 PM): I will admit that right now.
Idran1701 (5:02:46 PM): I do not see the need for many of their changes.
CGNakibe (5:02:49 PM): If you want my blunt, frank, and totally biased opinion? Don't play it. Don't get near it.
Idran1701 (5:02:53 PM): And I don't want to have these changes.
Idran1701 (5:03:09 PM): I probably won't.
Idran1701 (5:03:34 PM): And I know that that means that it's probably going to be the case that my ability to RP here will die off about 5 or 10 years down the line because the rest of you all will.
Idran1701 (5:16:05 PM): I'm just checking if you've really been typing for a while or if my AIM's glitched up and eaten a message of yours or something.
CGNakibe (5:16:25 PM): Not typing anything at the moment.
Idran1701 (5:16:48 PM): I think it did, then. I didn't see an IM from you since you told me I shouldn't play 4e.
Idran1701 (5:17:45 PM): Did you send something I missed?
CGNakibe (5:18:55 PM): Don't think so. May have started to type something, though. Don't think I did, though.
Idran1701 (5:19:01 PM): *nod*
Idran1701 (5:19:30 PM): Anyway, I know that's just me acting stupid. But that's part of why I got into 3.5, and started my game on the board and all.
CGNakibe direct connection is closed (5:26:37 PM).
Idran1701 (5:29:06 PM): Sorry. I didn't mean to get so caught up in things. I really shouldn't feel so strongly about this, it's just a game and all. Hope I didn't make you too upset with me.
CGNakibe (5:30:46 PM): Eh. I'm alright. I honestly should've let it drop a while back.
Idran1701 (5:30:57 PM): No, it's my fault. I should have.
CGNakibe (5:31:03 PM): I know how you feel, really.
CGNakibe (5:31:08 PM): You know I play fighting games?
CGNakibe (5:31:23 PM): Followed Street Fighter since the second game. Played the first game later.
CGNakibe (5:31:27 PM): HATE Alpha 3.
CGNakibe (5:32:00 PM): They basically copied everything from another game there. Despite it being the third in a side series.
CGNakibe (5:32:11 PM): It feels... wrong.
CGNakibe (5:32:15 PM): Very.
CGNakibe (5:32:21 PM): And I'm one of the few people it seems that hates it.
Idran1701 (5:32:36 PM): I'm not really upset because I think I won't like the system, though that definitely bothers me.
Idran1701 (5:32:49 PM): I'm upset that that'll mean I won't be able to play with others as much, because they won't.
Idran1701 (5:33:15 PM): Like you, you can play just about any system and have fun. I just...I can, but I don't know.
Idran1701 (5:35:56 PM): I can't always get up the will to do so. I don't even know when I'm willing to try something new system/setting wise or not.
Idran1701 (5:36:13 PM): It's almost random, but it just seems like more and more recently I'd rather not.
CGNakibe (5:38:09 PM): *nods*
Idran1701 (5:38:50 PM): But I don't want to do that. It's like...now, I want to be more involved, but when people actually ask, most of the time I freeze up and do nothing and regret it later.
Idran1701 (5:40:01 PM): Besides a couple sessions to start the GURPS game this summer, I haven't done any RPing in person in over 4 years, just because I'm too worried about joining a live group and too embarassed to do any actual RPing except with friends. Sometimes even if I am with friends.
CGNakibe (5:42:30 PM): Honestly considering putting more effort into getting another RL game, as I haven't gone out of my way for RP in a while too.
Idran1701 (5:42:55 PM): I don't even know if I could bring myself to do it in front of strangers.
CGNakibe (5:43:01 PM): There's a good chance one of the online groups that I've been lurking at will start a local game, honestly.
CGNakibe (5:43:08 PM): But that's a different thing. I KNOW them now.
CGNakibe (5:43:11 PM): In person and whatnot.
Idran1701 (5:43:17 PM): I've never even really told anyone I know about the fact that I do it online except my family, and only the vaguest of concepts for them.
Idran1701 (5:48:34 PM): ...Well, no, actually, I did tell some people off and on, I remember now. But less than a half-dozen even including high school.
Idran1701 (6:36:35 PM): Anyway, want to try picking things back up after Shannel? I feel really guilty about ruining that with all my 4e whining nonsense. :(
Idran1701 (6:52:09 PM): Shaun?
CGNakibe (7:32:48 PM): Rar. Sorry Sorry. Yeah, I want to. ^^;;;
Idran1701 (7:32:55 PM): *nod* Awesome.
Idran1701 (7:32:58 PM): Sorry again. :(
Idran1701 (10:24:04 PM): Idran1701 (10:18:54 PM): (Anyway, Shaun, shall we pick up that other side session now, if you're up for it? :D)
CGNakibe (10:24:32 PM): (Merf?)
Idran1701 (10:24:50 PM): (Awesome. I'll copy the last line in for you.)
Idran1701 (10:25:07 PM):
CGNakibe (3:05:56 PM): IM: Eh. I figure I cna be either wrong, or more wrong.
CGNakibe (3:06:25 PM): *... heads to the entrance that leads towards the tower*
Idran1701 (10:25:15 PM): *Arian heads for the tower!*
Idran1701 (10:25:45 PM): *Though there's some crowding around it, it's not quite so much, and he can get through without too much bumping and jostling*
CGNakibe (10:26:02 PM): *probably no Wizard of Oz in here., but we shall soon see.*
Idran1701 (10:26:07 PM): *He gets a few looks for the ears and tail, but no real staring, not much more than a glance of acknowledgement.*
Idran1701 (10:27:58 PM): *Inside looks to be a reception area, with a pair of desks where receptionists take appointments and what he assumes are fines from those standing in a pair of lines.*
CGNakibe (10:28:16 PM): IM: Hm. This is interesting.
Idran1701 (10:28:22 PM): *It looks like he's got at least a ten-minute wait in either line, if that's what he wants to do.*
Idran1701 (10:28:45 PM): *Or if not, there's a door at either side of the room, and two in the wall before him bookending the pair of desks*
Idran1701 (10:29:44 PM): *What shall Arian do? :O*
CGNakibe (10:30:19 PM): *Anything of note about the two doors? Or the two desks before said doors?*
Idran1701 (10:31:47 PM): *Four doors; The one on the left stands open, and looks to be a cloak room.

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Idran1701 (10:32:07 PM):

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Idran1701 (10:32:21 PM): (He's in the middle of the "left" wall")
Idran1701 (10:32:34 PM): (And since my message got cut off by mistake:)
Idran1701 (10:32:58 PM): *Four doors; The one on the left stands open, and looks to be a cloak room. The other three doors stay closed, with no one heading in or out but for a single guard-escorted fellow not long after he steps in.*
CGNakibe (10:33:25 PM): IM: Hmm.... A cloak room? For visitors, or otherwise?
CGNakibe (10:33:35 PM): *which way is the escorted person going?*
Idran1701 (10:36:00 PM): *through the door in front of him, on the desks' left*
CGNakibe (10:37:10 PM): IM: Hmmm. ... wait... *where is that crowd that he had to push through? Still outside mostly?*
CGNakibe (10:37:25 PM): (Oh, right. They're busy paying fines and whatnot.)
Idran1701 (10:39:15 PM): (Yeah, they're being orderly here, standing in line. And it doesn't surround the tower anyway, just the promenade (ground-floor balcony, essentially) around the main building.)
Idran1701 (10:39:25 PM): (And there, mostly around the front entrance.)
CGNakibe (10:43:08 PM): (Back in a bit.)
CGNakibe (10:50:42 PM): (Making food. Haven't eaten since about an hour BEFORE we started this RP. Maybe more than that.)
Idran1701 (10:50:49 PM): (*nod*)
CGNakibe (10:53:15 PM): (Anyway...) *Arian would definitely be interested in that coat room. A quick peek reveal anyone in there? Anyone at all?
Idran1701 (10:53:35 PM): *Nope! Just a bunch of coats, cloaks, and whatnot.*
Idran1701 (10:53:54 PM): *...Wait, scratch that. There's a gnome he missed standing at the side.*
Idran1701 (10:54:07 PM): *Just barely visible, it took him a bit to spot him.*
CGNakibe (10:54:26 PM): *How's said gnome look?*
Idran1701 (10:54:39 PM): *With his eyes, if he's anything like Arian*
CGNakibe (10:56:05 PM): (*whap*) *Does the gnome seem bored, or to be waiting for someone?
Idran1701 (10:56:36 PM): *Nope. He's dressed pretty simply, keeping an eye on the doorway, and a close check reveals he's holding a clipboard and quill.*
Idran1701 (10:56:49 PM): (Shini did it to me yesterday, I had to spread it around. :P)
CGNakibe (10:58:06 PM): *that looks moderately promising, Arian will investigate closer, in the most basic manner possible. "Er. Hello, sir."
Idran1701 (10:58:47 PM): ...Eh? *he looks up towards him*
CGNakibe (11:02:49 PM): Sorry for intruding like this, but I was wondering if this was the right place to learn more about your faction?
CGNakibe (11:04:11 PM): (About now is when we learn that the first Rule of the Guvners is to never talk about the Guvners.)
Idran1701 (11:04:24 PM): Oh, no, you want the main building. Head over to the side entrance, take the wide staircase up and tell someone you're interested in recruitment.
CGNakibe (11:06:22 PM): Ah. Thank you.
Idran1701 (11:06:35 PM): *nods*
CGNakibe (11:06:39 PM): *follow, follow, follow the good instructions.*
Idran1701 (11:09:24 PM): *Arian heads out, up the rear staircase, and through the side door! There's a long hallway with a pair of doors on either side, one in each door at the close end and one on the far end. At the farthest point of the hallway is a wide staircase leading up to the second story. The two closer doors stand slightly open, and from each he can hear the sounds of court proceedings from within.

...In fact, he sees, peeking in, a fiend on the bench in one room, and what looks like an angel on the other.*

Idran1701 (11:09:34 PM): *Odd place, Sigil.*
CGNakibe (11:09:48 PM): IM: Wow. Just.... wow.
CGNakibe (11:10:23 PM): IM: ... and now I think of Karinska telling me not to seduce any angels. That's what I get for not thinking literally enough....
CGNakibe (11:14:16 PM): *heads further down, now that he's done oogling at angels in court. Someone's gotta be here that'd be interested in helping him, right?*
Idran1701 (11:15:07 PM): *Lucky for him Karin's not there to smack him :D*
CGNakibe (11:16:36 PM): (*imagines Karinska experiencing being a sports-loving beer-drinking guy on Super Bowl Sunday watching the game)
CGNakibe (11:16:49 PM): (OOC Arian: She understands, right? I mean, she knows how guys think, right?! 9.9;;; )
CGNakibe (11:16:58 PM): (Karinska: *WHAP* No. e.e)
CGNakibe (11:17:10 PM): (OOC Arian: *whines*)
Idran1701 (11:17:35 PM): (Karin: Just go eat your beggin' bits. >:)
CGNakibe (11:19:27 PM): *Anyone home in these halls? Or how about those doors further on?*
Idran1701 (11:19:30 PM): *He heads down the hallway, up the mentioned wide stairway, where things are much quieter. There look to be a number of open offices (think cubicles only with full walls), and it isn't long before someone walks by. A human, his nose in a recordsheet, a small set of spectacles resting on his nose and his blond hair tied back in a pony tail. He bumps into him, glancing up and continuing past him.*

Oh, excuse me.
CGNakibe (11:19:42 PM): Ah. Pardon me.
CGNakibe (11:20:35 PM): ... *stops... and turns back to the man* Excuse me... but perhaps could you help me? You see I was here hoping to find out more about your faction. I was told to ask about recruitment in specific...?
Idran1701 (11:23:29 PM): Oh...oh! Oh, of course...ah, here!
Idran1701 (11:23:42 PM): This way. *he heads off, down the hall of offices*
Idran1701 (11:24:16 PM): *He can see inside each of the doorless workspaces as he passes, with various folks working on recording, transcribing, transfering, and other tasks.*
Idran1701 (11:24:34 PM): *One even seems to be doing some sort of work with spells, from a glimpse of the open books scattered about.*
CGNakibe (11:24:39 PM): *follows behind the man, wondering if he's headed towards his meeting... whatever it was... or towards recruit ment. Arian shrugged, realings that he could learn somethign either way.*
CGNakibe (11:27:25 PM): *tries to take a look at those spells... but realizes he's falling behind.*
Idran1701 (11:28:41 PM): *he stops, knocking on the wall next to the doorway* Keina? There's a fellow here interested in joining up, are you free?

Oh? I'm free enough. *She looks up from what seems to be some sort of accounting sheet, smiling to Arian. An older woman, perhaps 45 or so, with the barest glow about her; beyond that, she looks human enough, with white hair in contrast to her olive skin tone.*
Idran1701 (11:29:00 PM): Come in, have a seat. Thanks, Paul.

*he nods, and heads off*
CGNakibe (11:30:06 PM): Thank you. *sits down*
Idran1701 (11:32:40 PM): Now, you're looking to join the Fraternity, then? May I ask why?
Idran1701 (11:32:50 PM): ...Oh, where are my manners? *chuckles*
Idran1701 (11:32:55 PM): I should probably get your name first.
CGNakibe (11:33:23 PM): Arian Renfield, ma'am. ITs a pleasure to meet you.
Idran1701 (11:34:11 PM): *nods, shaking his hand* Keina DuPan, the pleasure's mine.
CGNakibe (11:35:22 PM): As for my interest, I am from offplane, and honestly was directed here by someone who thought I might be interested in joining.
CGNakibe (11:35:35 PM): I came hoping to learn more about who you are, and what you do, if that's alright.
Idran1701 (11:36:43 PM): *nods* Of course. But before we get into that, would you know why your friend directed you towards us, exactly. It would help me if I knew what exactly you were hoping to get out of membership in the Fraternity, after all. *smiles*
CGNakibe (11:41:14 PM): That sounds reasonable enough. She actually told me that it would be in my best interests to find a faction that was suitable for me, if for no other reason than to know more about this town and its people than I already do. And possibly to keep me out of trouble, I think. 9.9 Actually she handed me a pamphlet about all the factions, and I chose to investigate this place as well as a few others.
Idran1701 (11:41:27 PM): *she chuckles, nodding as he talks*
CGNakibe (11:41:38 PM): That and I may end up living here in the future...
Idran1701 (11:41:57 PM): *nods* And what interested you about our faction?
CGNakibe (11:47:11 PM): Well... I'm used to in some senses helping with the law at home, although I doubt that my experiences there would qualify for such. For me, I suppose, it boils down to the fact that you help keep the laws of society, and I am more than a tad familiar with that.
Idran1701 (11:48:53 PM): *nods* What was your position back at home?
CGNakibe (11:51:12 PM): At home I was a knight in service to my country. My arrival here was... quite accidental.
CGNakibe (11:51:41 PM): Well, mostly. We're not ENTIRELY sure that the bastard we were after did this on accident. Oh. Pardon my language, madam.
Idran1701 (11:53:57 PM): *chuckles* Don't worry about it, I've heard worse.

So, it sounds like your experience is more towards the enforcement of law than the discovery of it. So what brings you to our view of order, then?

CGNakibe (11:58:03 PM): Here, however, I have been following up on that interest somewhat. The problems at home caused the destruction of a nation, and the land in that area is still warped. I would give much to know what caused the disaster.
Idran1701 (12:01:38 AM): *nods* So you wish to discover the Laws that describe these problems, so that they can be avoided in the future? You certainly wouldn't be the first member to join for such reasons. It's a very laudable goal.
Idran1701 (12:03:43 AM): And what of the lower Rules? Is this goal your soul purpose, or are you open to the other aspects of the Fraternity?
CGNakibe (12:05:05 AM): This goal is not my sole purpose, no. I'd like to hear more about these other aspects, if you'd be so kind.
Idran1701 (12:11:47 AM): Well, the most obvious is our position in the judiciary, of course. We serve as one of the three pillars of law in Sigil, alongside the Harmonium and the Mercykillers. We try cases brought before us by the Harmonium, and pass judgment accordingly.

Beyond Sigil, we work to uncover the Rules, Laws, and Axioms of the multiverse. By discovering the secrets behind them, a person can learn the true meaning behind events. Though breaking the Laws is impossible, through research and deduction we find just how far a person can go within them. Which is a good deal farther than most others might expect. *smirks*

Idran1701 (12:13:16 AM): Some of us work in different ways to find the truths. Some investigate magic, looking at the formulas and nethods that allow a person to channel magical power. Some work more abstractly; the Mathematicians of Mechanus, for example, find meaning in the laws of calculation. Some even study the underlying principles of Chaos, and the patterns within it.
CGNakibe (12:16:38 AM): Ah. I see. So you seek the limits of existence, in order to better learn its definition. An admirable goal, I'd say. With even a partial knowledge of those limits, one could do much for others, I think. Or for themselves, depending. o.o
Idran1701 (12:17:43 AM): *nods* Exactly. A difficult goal, but one we've grown ever closer to in the 982 years since our faction was first founded. And you know, we were the first faction founded in Sigil.
CGNakibe (12:24:51 AM): Wow. Quite the storied history, if I do say so myself.
Idran1701 (12:25:23 AM): *nods, smirking* And we've kept records if the entire time.
Idran1701 (12:25:38 AM): You can't learn from the multiverse without learning from the past, after all.
Idran1701 (12:30:35 AM): We also keep records of all Rules and Laws known up to this point from across the Planes. One of our bureaus is devoted to analyzing the Rules of various cultures, looking for patterns to discover insight into the workings of societies, regardless of their members.
Idran1701 (12:31:52 AM): Now, then, for your specific goal, if you were to join...well, what sort of problem is this you wish to look into?
CGNakibe (12:33:40 AM): It definitely seems to be magical in nature. According to rumor and legend, a great kingdom apparently destroyed almost overnight through their own magics. The reality of it isn't much better, though.
CGNakibe (12:34:37 AM): I visited there. The cursed lands that still remain, and its as if time itself was broken in that place. The people were still there, trapped in whatever they were doing in their final moments of life. Any interaction with someone outside of their frame seems to turn them to dust, as if they were long past the realm of decay.
CGNakibe (12:35:18 AM): Deeper in may have had stranger effects than even that.
CGNakibe (12:35:33 AM): But, at the time, all we wanted was at its edge, or seemed to be.
Idran1701 (12:38:35 AM): *nod* Magical in nature, then. Well, if you were to join, then after ascending through the lower ranks, you could eventually end up in the Bureau of Magical Incidents. There, you'd be helping other Administrators discover the general properties of spellwork. If you were successful enough, you could use these properties to find ways of avoiding, or even reversing such happenstances.
Idran1701 (12:40:17 AM): It wouldn't happen right away, though. You'd have to work for the privilege.
CGNakibe (12:41:56 AM): Perfectly fine with me. I wouldn't mind the work, I don't think.
CGNakibe (12:44:27 AM): Besides. It might actually help me to understand that which I'd research if I did get promoted through the ranks.
Idran1701 (12:44:35 AM): *nod*
Idran1701 (12:46:42 AM): Well, you seem adept enough. I'll give you an introductory version of our handbook. In two weeks, we'll have our monthly entrance exams. It's simple enough, just basic questions about the laws of Sigil and general questions about order.
CGNakibe (12:48:19 AM): (Okay, NOW I'm getting kinda tired.)
Idran1701 (12:48:54 AM): (Bah, it's only almost 3. :D)
Idran1701 (12:49:36 AM): (Sure. We can finish the last of this up and continue with a second faction tomorrow, perhaps. What did you have in mind for number 2?)
CGNakibe (12:51:20 AM): (Signers, I think.)
Idran1701 (12:51:32 AM): (*nod*)
CGNakibe (12:53:15 AM): (Anyway.. .night. Or should I say morning?)
Idran1701 (12:53:25 AM): (Not if the sun's not out yet. :D)
Idran1701 (12:53:30 AM): (Night, Shaun.)
CGNakibe signed off at 12:55:26 AM.
CGNakibe signed on at 8:06:38 AM.