Talk:Language Notes

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This was previously a category with three articles: Gaeran atheists, Summoner, and Summoned. The first is also listed under Gaera Main Theology, where it fits better, IMO, and the other two are listed both under Gaera Main and Gaeran Magic, the latter of which makes a lot of sense and moreso than "language notes."

The stuff written here, though, deserves its own page, as far as I'm concerned. And, sometime, I'd like to port over the information from the site about ICly writing Gaeran languages, etc. I don't think that'll take more than one well-organized page, and the current stuff on this page can go over to the talk page. If I'm wrong, well...I can remake the category easily enough?

~lele

--Dia 16:03, 25 February 2007 (PST)

from an old thread

Besyanteo (9/14/05 16:55)

OK. So, I was thinking about some of the things in our Cannon recently. Specifically, various names for things and people(s). Like, Nekogami and the Nekojin. These kinda make sense, as their whole schtick has kind of old Japan basing.

... So what's everyone else's excuse? o_o

Over half the gods, most of the furries. many posted demon races, and even some aquatic races are all named basedo n the Japanese language. And I can totally see why they originally were (convenience, since it doesn't sound like English made all silly).

But why are they STILL that way? Garou have aparently dropped the "jin" when talking abuot themselves ICly, so their name is now more french (the loup-garou, although it is aparently also used in Katakana or whatever? The 'foriegn' Japanese I've heard it called?), but otherwise it all seems... very fanboyish. *shrug*

Anyway, I just thought it would be neat if some of the race experts that are still active atleast gave this some thought. Or better yet, comment! If you don't agree that some (if not alot) of these should be changed, tell me so!

Kai (9/14/05 17:08)

Well, unfortunately it seems the first person to post is not going to be an expert. But I'm mouthy, so here goes.

I'm rather fond of the nomenclature used on the site/in Gaeran canon. Using the Japanese terms does two things:

It avoids naming everything without context or reasoning behind the name. Often in fantasy settings it's common to give characters batshit insane names. This is okay for characters from my view, but not for things which ought to be relatively standardized, which brings me to my second point.

The Japanese system of naming (at least as it is adapted to be used here) can be a little more regular than, say... English. It's easier to make the things which have to do with cat people (to use your example) more standardized and more closely connected to one another. A Nekojin worshipper of Nekogami who lives in Nekonia. Cat theme ahoy.

I realize not all of the word bases/naming systems for deities/locations/whatever are based on the Japanese language. But I don't see any reason for it to be changed. As it stands, the terms are easy to remember (at least they'd be much more difficult with another system), and it's easy to improvise.

It's much more simplified than a naturally-developed nomenclature probably would be, but I like to think of that as an advantage rather than a drawback. Because it was organized over a much shorter period of time than, say, hundreds of years, allowances could be made early on. The naming system may change later on. Who can say? But it should change because it no longer fits the things it's naming, not because the system has too strong a theme or an obvious derivation.

So... while I admittedly have not been using the system as long as most other people on the board since I haven't been exposed to it as long, I'm casting my vote of confidence that it's fine the way it is.

Archmage144 (9/14/05 17:12)

I think it's just convention--we're not the only community that does it when referring to an anime-esque RP setting, though no other examples come to mind. It also has to do with the fact that nekojin and inujin, at the very least, were pioneered and named by Amanda. Ditto for many of the original deities (Nekogami, Inugami, and Ryuugami come to mind--and it should be noted that the proper name for Inugami is Fideleo).Since "Japanese" doesn't exist in Gaera, whether or not they're named in "Japanese" is largely irrelevant, and these names might just be common words. The inujin might call themselves something different in their own language, for example, but I can't think of anything in 'Spanish" that conveys the idea of "anthropomorphic dogs."

They are "still" that way because changing them would likely create confusion and would overall be pretty pointless.

The simplest explanation is that the words (which sound "Japanese" to us) are some form of Gaeran Common, and Japanese was used as the base real-world language for the nomenclature of anthro races and deities just because it was convenient and sounded good as opposed to anything else anyone could come up with in English. Gods can have alternate names (one example has already been given, others do as well--I know I never use the name Jiyuugami for Kazeros or whatever the JPN-esque name is). Races can have alternate names as well, but I think it's best to stick to the "Japanese" nomenclature since it's already in place. Arguing the point is really beating a dead horse, especially since it's more or less semantics ("Japanese doesn't exist in Gaera!" Neither does English, but there's no point in learning an entirely fictional language to RP).

If it makes us look like "fanboys" or whatever, it's something that's never bothered me. Appropriating words from other languages that sound cool is pretty damn common, linguistically speaking, and Americans are in no way the only ones that do it. The Japanese appropriate English (where do you think Engrish comes from?) and slap it all over products and in song lyrics because it sounds exotic, modern, and interesting, even if they don't know what's being said. So do many other cultures. A lot of Latin music that is otherwise being sung in English randomly lapses into Spanish for the sake of fitting a rhyming scheme.

Just my perspective on the subject.

Edit: Kai posted while I was composing mine. Yar!

Capntastic (9/14/05 22:57)

Most of my characters say things like "Lizardfolk" or "Bearfolk."

Except Ned, who says "Nekojin" for obvious reasons ;D

Idran1701 (9/15/05 7:03)

I've brought this up before myself, since I found it odd. I think I ended up just deciding in game that all the racial/god/whatever names were drawn from Nekonian for some reason, but Brian's explanation makes more sense. The occasionally-mentioned "translation filter" that's sometimes considered to be built into the fourth wallas it were, that also results in people that make rhyming works rhyme in English, or that make puns that make sense in English, or so on.

PriamNevhausten (9/15/05 9:13)

I know I avoid the use of "-jin" wherever it is even moderately possible. Instead of "Nekojin" and "Inujin" to refer to species, I will *always* use "Nekonian" and "Inustani" because, well. The characters literally speak english because we do, even if this english is only something of a translation from their assumedly-not-english language, so it only makes sense to use English-language area-of-origin classifiers.

In a historical sense, you may recall that I wrote the Inustani civilization guide with the notion that they call their own people "gente." As far as I see it, the first people they encountered were likely the Nekonians, who then gave them the moniker "Inujin" as a way to differentiate Inustani from their own citizens. So, I suppose it is acceptable and recognizable to call them so, but, being a Nekonian-given name, most Inustani would likely be loath to call themselves that.

It all works out in the end if you just blame the Nekonians for everything =D

another thread: Glaring Inconsistencies

Nekogami (Posts: 1003) 2007 Apr 10 20:33

Because once upon a time, Amanda was a greenhorn.

My main beef is with Nekonia and linguistics. The names currently on the map and of the founding fathers...

are not in Japanese.

Nekonians....

Speak Japanese.

Something's gotta give...either Nekonians speak Japanese or I'm going to have to retconn shit and make it common. Or something.

>:{ What says all of you?

Seethe (Posts: 221) 2007 Apr 10 20:50

"-ia" isn't really a normal ending to a Japanese location name either, is it?

Nekogami (Posts: 1003) 2007 Apr 10 20:54

No, it's not. SOmething that's plagued me for a while...

But it's established that Nekonians have their own language. If I change it will be a more "cat like" language. PUrrs, meows, and body language and so on...

Capntastic (Posts: 3600) 2007 Apr 10 20:59

I've always seen it as being the Gaeran equivalent with Japanese; and I'm fine with it continuing suchly.

Kai (Posts: 1634) 2007 Apr 10 21:46

What Zero said.

Archmage (Posts: 211) 2007 Apr 10 22:49

Yeah, we've already had the conversation about languages and nomenclature like three times on this forum. Things are named the way they are and it's not a big deal. Some stuff is named in pseudo-Japanese; the in-world explanation is that Nekonian names for certain things are just in common usage. Some of the Nekonian city names don't sound "Japanese?" Big deal. It's not Japanese--it's Nekonian, so it doesn't have the same linguistic rules as Japanese. We just "represent" some of the in-game languages as real-world languages to save time instead of inventing new ones. That doesn't mean that they necessarily are those languages, or even have to follow the same rules.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with Dave at Otakon when he professed concern about his ability to pull of a British accent for Daniel Hyral (particularly when an actual Brit was going to be around). Like I told him:

"But that's just it. It's NOT a British accent, it's a Baronian accent. So it can sound like whatever you want, and whatever accent you give him is right!"

So ultimately, this means you don't have to change anything you don't want to. Besides, who says the names on the maps are the names that Nekonians use to refer to things? They're the Common names, much like when you look at a map in a classroom in an English-speaking country. I don't see Spain labelled as "Spain" on Spanish maps--it says "España."

pd Rydia (Posts: 4615) 2007 Apr 10 23:51

The way I understood/understand things is this:

-- the Nekonian language is represented by japanese. (Like AM said, there can be inconsistencies because it's not actually Japanese)

-- the language is beginning to die out in the country. Specifically, the language was established as "High Nekonian," and was taught largely to the upper classes. In some more anachronistic towns, Nekonian was still spoken exclusively.

-- most natives knew a good smattering of words. The official language of the country is still Nekonian, meaning that official documents are written in the language and most signs are, as well. While it has been tradition for official documents to be produced also in Common, and many signs are also produced in Common, natives tend to pick up a Nekonian vocabulary--if not necessarily grammar--from the environment.


Now, given all this, Nekonian was used exclusive at some point in time.


If it was used before the country's founding, then the country's name and founders' names would realistically be different. I don't think that would mess too much up.


On the other hand, if the Nekonian language was created and used exclusively after the country's unification and founding, then the names still work.

I like the idea of a more cat like language--maybe that was the language or one of the languages before the country unified and in the early days of the country?


The question would then be--why the change in language?